@JustBob Discord has completely warped the term "server" for entire generations of Internet users. On Discord, "server" means "chatroom".

In the Fediverse, "server" doesn't mean "chatroom". It means "server". A computer.

For example, a rack computer with no screen and no keyboard and no mouse bolted into a server rack at a data centre.

Or an old laptop that someone had lying around or a Raspberry Pi mini-computer running at someone's home, connected to their landline.

On each one of these, a big or small Twitter can be running (Mastodon).

Or a wholly different Twitter (Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, Sharkey, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko...).

(Here's the first important new thing for you to learn about the Fediverse: The Fediverse is not only Mastodon.)

Or a Facebook with a side of a blog and a cloud server (Friendica, (streams), Forte).

(Here's the second important new thing for you to learn about the Fediverse: The Fediverse is not only short-form microblogging. Look at this comment. Look at what I've done. Embedded links. Bold type. Impossible on Mastodon. But possible elsewhere in the Fediverse.)

Or a Facebook meets WordPress meets Google Cloud Services meets even more stuff on top (Hubzilla; this is where I am).

Or an Instagram (Pixelfed).

Or a YouTube (PeerTube).

Or a Twitch (Owncast).

Or a Reddit (Lemmy, /kbin, Mbin, PieFed).

Or a Goodreads (BookWyrm).

Or whatever. There are over 150 different server applications in the Fediverse.

mastodon.social, where you are, is only one of over 10,000 big and small Twitters of the same kind (Mastodon).

If Mastodon was like Discord, all 10,000+ Mastodon servers would run in one and the same gigantic data centre in the USA, owned by Mastodon, Inc. And they would all be property of Mastodon, Inc.

If the Fediverse was like Discord, all 30,000+ Fediverse servers would run in one and the same gigantic data centre in the USA, owned by Mastodon, Inc. And they would all be property of Mastodon, Inc. Also, they would be fully identical in functionality.

But as I've said above: They're all running on their own separate machines. With their own separate owners.

And the different server applications have different developers, and they are being developed independently from one another.

Okay, now comes the kicker: These server applications are not walled up against one another. Not only are all instances of the same server applications (e.g. Mastodon) connected to each other, but all instances of one server application are also connected to all instances of all the other server applications.

Imagine you're on Twitter. But your new friend is on Facebook. You can't follow a Facebook user on Twitter, and you can't follow a Twitter user on Facebook.

In the Fediverse, you can. You can be on Twitter. And follow a Facebook user. Directly from Twitter. Without a Facebook account.

Only that they aren't named Twitter and Facebook in the Fediverse. Twitter is named Mastodon or Pleroma or Akkoma or Misskey or Calckey or Firefish or Iceshrimp or Sharkey or Catodon or... There are dozens of Twitter alternatives in the Fediverse. Well, and Facebook is named Friendica or Hubzilla or (streams) or Forte.

You can be on Mastodon. And you can follow Friendica accounts. From Mastodon. Without a Friendica account.

This comment is a very good example. You are on Mastodon, created by @Eugen Rochko in 2016 as an alternative to Twitter that aimed to be as close to Twitter as possible.

The server that you're on, mastodon.social, is owned by Mastodon, Inc. and running on one or multiple rack servers in San Francisco, California, USA owned by Fastly.

I am on Hubzilla, created by @Mike Macgirvin in 2012 by forking his own Friendica from 2010, and currently mainly maintained by @Mario Vavti and @Harald Eilertsen. Hubzilla has got nothing to do with Mastodon whatsoever. It started out as an alternative to Facebook, but not a clone, rather better than Facebook, with full-blown long-form blogging capability and a built-in file storage, and it has been enhanced greatly in functionality even beyond that.

The server that I'm on, Netzgemeinde, is owned and administered by @Mark Nowiasz, who has no affiliation with the Hubzilla developers, and running on a rack server in Nuremberg, Germany owned by Netcup.

And yet, you can see this comment coming from Hubzilla on Mastodon.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Server #Instance #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Sharkey #Catodon #Meisskey #Tanukey #Neko #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Pixelfed #PeerTube #Owncast #Lemmy #/kbin #Mbin #PieFed #BookWyrm #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse

@Stevie Cat, Daisy Dog & Betty So I guess you're one of those who have joined Mastodon in the second Twitter migration wave in November 2022, and who still "know" that the Fediverse is only Mastodon. Their nice and cosy and fluffy Mastodon.

Well, then I've got a very very uncomfortable and upsetting truth to reveal to you: The Fediverse is not only Mastodon. It is more than just Mastodon.

There's a whole lot more stuff in the Fediverse, and all of it is connected to Mastodon just like Mastodon instances are connected to one another.

For example, there are dozens of other Twitter-like microblogging projects. Mastodon forks such as Glitch or Hometown. Pleroma. Pleroma forks such as Akkoma. Misskey. Dozens of Misskey forks such as Firefish, Iceshrimp, Sharkey, Catodon, Hajkey, Meisskey etc.

There are "Reddit clones" like Lemmy or /kbin.

There is the "Instagram clone" Pixelfed.

There is the YouTube stand-in PeerTube.

There is the Twitch stand-in Owncast.

There are the "Medium clones" WriteFreely and Plume.

There is the "Goodreads clone" BookWyrm.

There are the Facebook alternatives Friendica and (streams) as well as Hubzilla which goes well beyond being a Facebook alternative.

And a lot more.

All this is in the Fediverse, and all this is connected to Mastodon, whether you want or not. It's normal. It's intended. It's the very idea behind the Fediverse. And it has always been the idea behind the Fediverse.

Look at my mentions, how weird they look. Look at my hashtags, how weird they look. Look at this post and how it exceeds 500 characters. Look at my bold type. Look at my italics. All stuff that Mastodon can't do.

But how can I possibly do it if Mastodon can't do it?

Because I'm not on Mastodon. I'm on Hubzilla. Hubzilla is not a Mastodon instance. Hubzilla is not even a Mastodon fork. Hubzilla is developed completely independently from Mastodon. And Hubzilla is almost a year older than Mastodon. And yet, I can read what you've posted, and I can reply to you.

That's because Hubzilla is part of the Fediverse, just like Mastodon is. And it has always been.

CC: @Shiri Bailem @JP @eishiya

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Sharkey #Catodon #Hajkey #Meisskey #Lemmy #kbin #/kbin #Pixelfed #PeerTube #Owncast #WriteFreely #Plume #BookWyrm #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #NotOnlyMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse #FediverseIsNotMastodon

tl;dr: Hubzilla has had at least some of this for over a decade now. And it won't replace any of it with a new standard tailor-made for Mastodon.

@silverpill If you look past projects based on ActivityPub and at projects that have ActivityPub as an additional protocol, some of this already exists.

- Data portability. In my opinion, this is the most important problem. I'm in favor of FEP-ef61, which also solves identity portability and unlocks many new features.

Exists in the shape of nomadic identity. Invented by @Mike Macgirvin in 2011 with his Zot protocol and first deplayed in 2012 with the Red Matrix, nowadays known as Hubzilla. Also available on (streams), Mike's current project at the end of a string of forks from Hubzilla, now based on the Nomad protocol.

Mike would like to see nomadic identity and other special features of the Zot and Nomad protocols included in the ActivityPub protocol. He has actually submitted a number of proposals for this. They were all rejected. Even though he is a protocol developer first and foremost, and he has both created and worked on more Fediverse protocols than anyone else, so he should be considered competent.

Nomadic identity with ActivityPub won't come unless either Evan Prodromou and the W3C commission cave in and allow Mike's suggestions, or someone re-invents the wheel from scratch in a way that's utterly incompatible to Hubzilla and (streams). And it won't come to Mastodon unless Eugen Rochko can imply that Mastodon has had it first.

And there will never be a nomadic identity standard that meets Mike's requirements as well as Eugen's wishes.

- End-to-end encryption. MLS has become a standard, and it would be wise to adopt it. Issue 3 at fediverse-ideas provides a good overview of what we have at the moment (not much). Some variation of FEP-ae97 is likely needed to make end-to-end encryption work.

AFAIK, all three of Mike's still existing projects, Friendica from 2010, Hubzilla from 2012/2015 and (streams) from 2021, have it. Optionally, but still. I think Friendica actually advertises military-grade encryption.

- Plugins. Something like Pleroma MRF, but cross-platform (e.g. Wasm-based). Also, pluggable timeline algorithms.

Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have had support for add-ons, including third-party add-ons, plus a number of official add-ons since their respective inceptions. If you want a cross-platform add-on standard, I hope you don't expect these three to throw their own standards over board in favour of the new standard. Otherwise, good luck developing a replacement for Pubcrawl that makes Zot-based Hubzilla compatible with ActivityPub while working on ActivityPub-based Mastodon just the same. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) rely on add-ons for all federation beyond their respective base protocols (DFRN, Zot, Nomad).

- Groups. We have several competing standards for groups: FEP-1b12, FEP-400e, Mastodon developers are working on their own standard. It would be nice to converge on a single standard, that also supports private groups.

Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have had support for discussion groups/forums since their respective inception. On Friendica, a group is a user account with special settings; on Hubzilla and (streams), it's a channel with special settings. In addition, especially Hubzilla and (streams) have access permission control on a level that most people for whom the Fediverse is only ActivityPub couldn't imagine in their wildest dreams. All three can be used by users from all over the Fediverse already now.

Good luck forcing Friendica to give up its 13-year-old standard that's used by Fediverse News, just to name one, and Hubzilla to give up its 11-year-old standard that blows everything else but what (streams) does out of the water. Good luck forcing them to adopt something inferior.

On the other hand, good luck forcing Lemmy and /kbin to switch to a wholly different standard. Don't forget that these two exist as well. And good luck having the Fediverse outside of Hubzilla and (streams) adopt both server-side and client-side OpenWebAuth.

And I'm not even talking about how different Fediverse projects handle threads differently. Mastodon has a Twitter-like thread structure: many posts, tied together with mentiones. Just about everything that's built on ActivityPub has taken this over. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have a Facebook/blog/Tumblr-like thread structure: one post, the start post, and many comments which aren't posts. It's similar on Lemmy and /kbin which are Reddit clones, only that they don't allow thread starters to moderate their own threads.

- Quoting. FEP-e232 is a proposed standard, but most fediverse applications still use non-standard properties. Mastodon developers are trying to invent something completely different.

This is something that almost the whole Fediverse has implemented, save for Mastodon.

And again, Friendica has had quotes since its inception in 2010, almost six years before Mastodon was launched (which, by the way, federated with Friendica and Hubzilla on the spot). Hubzilla has had quotes since 2012, inherited from Friendica. Their way of quoting is dead-simple: BBcode. [quote][/quote] (streams) supports Markdown and HTML in addition to BBcode, but otherwise it's the same.

Oh, and by the way: Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have also supported quote-posts a.k.a. quote-tweets a.k.a. quote-toots a.k.a. quote-boosts from their very beginnings.

- Markets. So far there's only one server implementation capable of processing payments.

At least two. Hubzilla has a payment add-on, too. It isn't installed on all hubs, but it's there.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CWFedisplaining #Fediverse #Mastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse #NotOnlyMastodon #ActivityPub #Friendica #DFRN #Hubzilla #Zot #Streams #(streams) #Nomad #Lemmy #kbin #/kbin #NomadicIdentity #OpenWebAuth #Group #Groups #Forum #Forums #Quote #Quotes #Encryption #E2EE #E2EEncryption