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Thomas Dreher<p>John Cage: Fontana Mix, 1958. Notation published by C.F. Peters Corp. (EP 6712). More informations: Dreher, Thomas: John Cage - kommentierte Chronology. In: Bischoff, Ulrich (ed.): Kunst als Grenzbeschreitung: John Cage und die Moderne. Cat. exhibit. Staatsgalerie moderner Kunst, Munich 1991, p.234. PDF: <a href="http://dreher.netzliteratur.net/1_Cage_Chronologie.pdf" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">http://</span><span class="ellipsis">dreher.netzliteratur.net/1_Cag</span><span class="invisible">e_Chronologie.pdf</span></a> <a href="https://mstdn.social/tags/johncage" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>johncage</span></a> <a href="https://mstdn.social/tags/thomasdreher" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>thomasdreher</span></a> <a href="https://mstdn.social/tags/chanceoperations" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>chanceoperations</span></a> <a href="https://mstdn.social/tags/simultaneity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>simultaneity</span></a> <a href="https://mstdn.social/tags/americanmusic" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>americanmusic</span></a> <a href="https://mstdn.social/tags/fiftiesmusic" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>fiftiesmusic</span></a> <a href="https://mstdn.social/tags/experimentalnotation" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>experimentalnotation</span></a> <a href="https://mstdn.social/tags/experimentalnotations" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>experimentalnotations</span></a> <a href="https://mstdn.social/tags/experimentalmusic" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>experimentalmusic</span></a></p>
mj<p><span class="h-card"><a href="https://c.im/@science_quotes" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@<span>science_quotes</span></a></span> <span class="h-card"><a href="https://mastodon.online/@jcastroarnaud" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@<span>jcastroarnaud</span></a></span> <br>I tried to make it general enough that anyone could respond, so no worries there.</p><p>[Here's a post I just happened to see that talks about the importance of measuring principles, in the context of domestic abuse: <a href="https://c.im/@psforscher@nerdculture.de/109523214049642663" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://</span><span class="ellipsis">c.im/@psforscher@nerdculture.d</span><span class="invisible">e/109523214049642663</span></a> ]</p><p>The thing I could have emphasized more was the dual nature of the process. When we're stuck in one, the other will suffer.</p><p>So 'letting go' cuts both ways. As you point out, often times our models run into problems, and we have to make changes. The disagreement between <a href="https://c.im/tags/experiment" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>experiment</span></a> and <a href="https://c.im/tags/theory" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>theory</span></a> is a big red flag. </p><p>The default seems to be to alter the theory in some way. This is not always bad, nor is it always right. The impetus for this is our confidence in the model, fueled by various factors. The farther back the model goes, the less likely people are to challenge it, or even go back to the start for a complete review.</p><p>At the <a href="https://c.im/tags/fundamental" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>fundamental</span></a> layer of maths are simply the concept of numbers &amp; quantity. If you're going to use them other than the way they come, the set is probably the next option.</p><p>OTOH, not doing this is also creating <a href="https://c.im/tags/HiddenAssumptions" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>HiddenAssumptions</span></a> that do pass along to the higher levels. The problem with problems is that we don't always know where they're coming from!</p><p>The idea of 'continuous' reality, measured by a continuous number line populated by integers, and then modified by 'infinitely divisible units' between them in order to gain accuracy or change <a href="https://c.im/tags/scale" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>scale</span></a>, is the status quo that few ever bother to question.</p><p>IMO, the time to do that re-examination is exactly in circumstances like you brought up. Looking only at GR, or only at QM, we might walk away with the impression of their correctness &amp; <a href="https://c.im/tags/universality" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>universality</span></a>. But when they cannot be brought to terms with each other, then the next (or at least after a century of tinkering &amp; failing) logical area to question is in the models &amp; structures prior to them (rinse and repeat until resolved).</p><p>Our notion of making single, <a href="https://c.im/tags/continuous" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>continuous</span></a> measurements and being able to determine things like <a href="https://c.im/tags/simultaneity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>simultaneity</span></a> or mass-energy relations has failed in these areas.</p><p>The similarity between the theory / <a href="https://c.im/tags/measurement" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>measurement</span></a> relationship, and between practice / 'live' performance is what I was aiming to highlight.</p><p>When not performing, all masters practice /revisit the basics on a regular basis. A good practice session 'lets go' of the conditions of a performance, and vice versa.</p>
Jim Donegan 🎵 ✅<p>Does the <a href="https://mastodon.scot/tags/past" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>past</span></a> still exist? </p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwzN5YwMzv0&amp;ab_channel=SabineHossenfelder" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://www.</span><span class="ellipsis">youtube.com/watch?v=GwzN5YwMzv</span><span class="invisible">0&amp;ab_channel=SabineHossenfelder</span></a> </p><p><a href="https://mastodon.scot/tags/Physics" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>Physics</span></a> <a href="https://mastodon.scot/tags/SpecialRelativity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>SpecialRelativity</span></a> <a href="https://mastodon.scot/tags/GeneralRelativity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>GeneralRelativity</span></a> <a href="https://mastodon.scot/tags/BlockUniverse" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>BlockUniverse</span></a> <a href="https://mastodon.scot/tags/TheBlockUniverse" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>TheBlockUniverse</span></a> <a href="https://mastodon.scot/tags/Time" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>Time</span></a> <a href="https://mastodon.scot/tags/NatureOfTime" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>NatureOfTime</span></a> <a href="https://mastodon.scot/tags/Simultaneity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>Simultaneity</span></a> <a href="https://mastodon.scot/tags/Cosmology" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>Cosmology</span></a></p>
Pat<p><a href="https://qoto.org/tags/simultaneity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>simultaneity</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/relativity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>relativity</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/startrek" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>startrek</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/chess" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>chess</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/spacetime" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>spacetime</span></a> </p><p>3D chess is actually 4D chess (unless all of the moves in a game are made simultaniously).</p>
Pat<p>Follow up on Causality as an emergent phenomenon...</p><p>(Ref. to: <a href="https://qoto.org/@Pat/106722620334765036" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://</span><span class="ellipsis">qoto.org/@Pat/1067226203347650</span><span class="invisible">36</span></a>)</p><p>I found sources on the topic:</p><p>Causality – Complexity – Consistency:<br>Can Space-Time Be Based on Logic and Computation?<br><a href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/1602.06987.pdf" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://</span><span class="">arxiv.org/pdf/1602.06987.pdf</span><span class="invisible"></span></a></p><p>Causal Emergence in Quantum Mechanics<br><a href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/1901.07471.pdf" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://</span><span class="">arxiv.org/pdf/1901.07471.pdf</span><span class="invisible"></span></a></p><p>Perfect signaling among three parties<br>violating predefined causal order<br><a href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/1312.5916.pdf" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://</span><span class="">arxiv.org/pdf/1312.5916.pdf</span><span class="invisible"></span></a></p><p>Causality theory for closed cone structures with applications<br><a href="https://arxiv.org/pdf/1709.06494.pdf" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://</span><span class="">arxiv.org/pdf/1709.06494.pdf</span><span class="invisible"></span></a></p><p>Plus an older article, "CPT Violation Implies Violation of Lorentz Invariance" by O.W. Greenberg, which might be related to the topic.<br><a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0201258" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://</span><span class="">arxiv.org/abs/hep-ph/0201258</span><span class="invisible"></span></a></p><p>I just found these yesterday on arXiv and really haven't vetted them much. There's more out there, mostly from the last decade or so. Not sure why I couldn't find this before -- I tried multiple times this year to find this stuff and now a week after I posted here I find a bunch of stuff. Go figure...</p><p>Some of it is about non-locality and some also on temporal non-causality like disordered cause/effect. (Some authors use the term acausality instead of non-causality.)</p><p>Also, there's a prof at U. Miss. (Luca Bombelli, www.phy.olemiss.edu/~luca/) with some nice reference lists:</p><p>Causality in Quantum Field Theory<br><a href="https://www.phy.olemiss.edu/~luca/Topics/st/causal_qft.html" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://www.</span><span class="ellipsis">phy.olemiss.edu/~luca/Topics/s</span><span class="invisible">t/causal_qft.html</span></a></p><p>Causality in Quantum Theory<br><a href="https://www.phy.olemiss.edu/~luca/Topics/st/causal_qm.html" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://www.</span><span class="ellipsis">phy.olemiss.edu/~luca/Topics/s</span><span class="invisible">t/causal_qm.html</span></a></p><p>Causality<br><a href="https://www.phy.olemiss.edu/~luca/Topics/st/causal.html" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://www.</span><span class="ellipsis">phy.olemiss.edu/~luca/Topics/s</span><span class="invisible">t/causal.html</span></a></p><p>Hope this useful.</p><p>-------------<br><a href="https://qoto.org/tags/einstein" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>einstein</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/bohr" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>bohr</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/causality" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>causality</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/spacetime" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>spacetime</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/belltest" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>belltest</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/epr" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>epr</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/paradox" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>paradox</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/light" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>light</span></a> <br><a href="https://qoto.org/tags/atom" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>atom</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/atoms" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>atoms</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/electron" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>electron</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/proton" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>proton</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/quark" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>quark</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/neutron" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>neutron</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/electricity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>electricity</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/stem" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>stem</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/technology" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>technology</span></a><br><a href="https://qoto.org/tags/cern" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>cern</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/matter" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>matter</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/energy" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>energy</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/higgs" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>higgs</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/particle" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>particle</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/lorentz" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>lorentz</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/simultaneity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>simultaneity</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/lightcone" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>lightcone</span></a><br><a href="https://qoto.org/tags/physics" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>physics</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/QM" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>QM</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/relativity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>relativity</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/gravity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>gravity</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/time" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>time</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/space" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>space</span></a></p>
Pat<p>More detail on the non-causality poll...</p><p>I'd expect adherents to quantum mechanics to choose "sometimes".</p><p>Since QM appears to introduce uncertainty (probabilistic) in place of causality (deterministic) (i.e., it moves from certainty toward randomness), I don't see why a deeper dive couldn't move entirely to randomness (non-causality). </p><p>Non-causality appears to be a generalization of nonlocality (or perhaps complimentary to it).</p><p>Because of the results of the Bell test experiments, there appears to be renewed interest in explicit theories of nonlocality (e.g., extentions of de Broglie–Bohm theory) to make QM more palatable.</p><p>I think the development of a construct for a non-causal extent with causality emergent at macroscopic levels (or emergent at the quantum/macro interface) could serve the same purpose, but I haven't been able to find anything on that. </p><p>*** Does anybody know of anyone who is working on that? ***</p><p>Here are some more hashtags to cast the net a bit wider. (feel free to comment even after the poll is complete):</p><p><a href="https://qoto.org/tags/einstein" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>einstein</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/bohr" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>bohr</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/causality" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>causality</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/spacetime" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>spacetime</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/belltest" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>belltest</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/epr" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>epr</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/paradox" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>paradox</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/light" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>light</span></a> <br><a href="https://qoto.org/tags/atom" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>atom</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/atoms" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>atoms</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/electron" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>electron</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/proton" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>proton</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/quark" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>quark</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/neutron" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>neutron</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/electricity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>electricity</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/stem" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>stem</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/technology" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>technology</span></a><br><a href="https://qoto.org/tags/cern" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>cern</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/matter" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>matter</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/energy" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>energy</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/higgs" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>higgs</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/particle" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>particle</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/lorentz" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>lorentz</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/simultaneity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>simultaneity</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/lightcone" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>lightcone</span></a><br><a href="https://qoto.org/tags/physics" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>physics</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/QM" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>QM</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/relativity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>relativity</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/gravity" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>gravity</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/time" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>time</span></a> <a href="https://qoto.org/tags/space" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>space</span></a></p>