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daniel:// stenberg://<p>Meanwhile in <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/curl" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>curl</span></a> land, we can now do <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/HTTP3" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>HTTP3</span></a> with <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/ngtcp2" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>ngtcp2</span></a> 1.12.0 and <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/OpenSSL" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>OpenSSL</span></a> 3.5.</p><p>Thanks to lots of amazing people, including <span class="h-card" translate="no"><a href="https://chaos.social/@icing" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@<span>icing</span></a></span> and Tatsuhiro of ngtcp2 of course.</p>
daniel:// stenberg://<p>It looks like the <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/OpenSSL" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>OpenSSL</span></a> QUIC API might be supported in the coming <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/ngtcp2" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>ngtcp2</span></a> 1.12.0 release:</p><p><a href="https://github.com/ngtcp2/ngtcp2/pull/1582" rel="nofollow noopener" translate="no" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://</span><span class="ellipsis">github.com/ngtcp2/ngtcp2/pull/</span><span class="invisible">1582</span></a></p><p>This could be exciting for <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/curl" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>curl</span></a> users building with <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/OpenSSL" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>OpenSSL</span></a> ...</p>
Petr Menšík :fedora:<p><span class="h-card" translate="no"><a href="https://mastodon.social/@bagder" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@<span>bagder</span></a></span> quite interesting details about quic support. It affects also DNS over QUIC, not only HTTPS/3. At least unbound and bind9 are compiled with OpenSSL on Fedora. Unbound has added recently server support via <a href="https://fosstodon.org/tags/ngtcp2" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>ngtcp2</span></a>. But it gets weird and inappropriate, linking two different crypto stacks into single binary. The reason is similar to curl. Normal TLS from OpenSSL, quic via gnutls. If it should be enabled, then this way...</p>
daniel:// stenberg://<p>An <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/ngtcp2" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>ngtcp2</span></a> lead developer told me they have no current plans to adapt to the new <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/OpenSSL" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>OpenSSL</span></a> <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/QUIC" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>QUIC</span></a> API because of its lack of 0RTT support and the "pull model".</p><p>Of course someone else can go ahead and write it and ideally someone from <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/OpenSSL" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>OpenSSL</span></a> does it, for dogfooding purposes.</p><p>I have no heard of any other QUIC stack either having adapted to it yet.</p>
daniel:// stenberg://<p>I now hope for <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/OpenSSL" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>OpenSSL</span></a> to work with <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/ngtcp2" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>ngtcp2</span></a> to make sure <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/QUIC" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>QUIC</span></a> works fine in that combo. Then we can leave the slow OpenSSL-QUIC implementation in its dusty corner and perhaps see rather wide HTTP/3 + curl adoption coming up.</p>
Harry Sintonen<p><a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/OpenSSL" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>OpenSSL</span></a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/QUIC" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>QUIC</span></a> implementation performance is "abysmal" compared to competing solutions such as <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/ngtcp2" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>ngtcp2</span></a> (ngtcp2 is 2-4x faster) and consumes tons (up to 25x in some situations) of memory. (*)</p><p>I still don't fathom why the OpenSSL project chose the path they took. It smells heavily of "Not Invented Here" to me.</p><p>Surely some future OpenSSL version will fix this mess?</p><p>*) <a href="https://lists.haxx.se/pipermail/daniel/2025-January/000096.html" rel="nofollow noopener" translate="no" target="_blank"><span class="invisible">https://</span><span class="ellipsis">lists.haxx.se/pipermail/daniel</span><span class="invisible">/2025-January/000096.html</span></a></p>
daniel:// stenberg://<p>Until improved, I believe the sever performance degradation and memory use compared to <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/ngtcp2" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>ngtcp2</span></a> are reasons enough for us to not recommend <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/OpenSSL" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>OpenSSL</span></a> QUIC for use with <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/curl" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>curl</span></a> in production.</p><p>Upload speed: ngtcp2 is 2-4x faster.</p><p>Memory use: in some tests, OpenSSL uses 25x the amount of memory.</p>
John-Mark Gurney<p>Whoa, I just got a basic Python wrapper around ngtcp2 [server only] functional. Lots of error handling and edge cases need to be implemented.</p><p>The test that is working is a client (aioquic) connects, opens a stream, both sides send some data, and confirms that the other side received the data.</p><p>I really didn't think my last set of changes would make things work, I expected to hit some unimplemented parts.</p><p>TODO:<br>```<br>$ grep NotImplementedError ngtcp2.py | wc -l<br> 15<br>```</p><p><a href="https://flyovercountry.social/tags/Python" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>Python</span></a> <a href="https://flyovercountry.social/tags/ngtcp2" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>ngtcp2</span></a></p>
John-Mark Gurney<p>Well, I can say that ngtcp2 is not coded very defensively. I finally got enough of a framework to call into it, and it causes a segfault.</p><p>No error on what possible pointer I messed up, not even an error that I messed up a pointer.</p><p><a href="https://flyovercountry.social/tags/ngtcp2" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>ngtcp2</span></a> <a href="https://flyovercountry.social/tags/ctypes" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>ctypes</span></a></p>
Petr Menšík :fedora:<p><span class="h-card" translate="no"><a href="https://fosstodon.org/@nlnetlabs" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@<span>nlnetlabs</span></a></span> <span class="h-card" translate="no"><a href="https://fosstodon.org/@fedora" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">@<span>fedora</span></a></span> First discovery is that we do not have even <a href="https://fosstodon.org/tags/ngtcp2" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>ngtcp2</span></a> library in Fedora yet. That man openssl-quic can already provide client connection API, but server API is not yet available via <a href="https://fosstodon.org/tags/OpenSSL" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">#<span>OpenSSL</span></a> releases. There is openssl+quic fork, which is unlikely to ever be in Fedora. We could end with unbound linked to openssl, but libngtcp2 linked to gnutls. Definitely not as straight forward as I have expected.</p>